<html><head><meta http-equiv="content-type" content="text/html; charset=UTF-8"></head><body style="zoom: 0%;"><div dir="auto">[A little historical rant for those who are truly bored...]<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">On Nov 28, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Joe Cupano <joe@cupano.com> wrote:<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">It was amazing how much infrastructure was unaffected in the rest of NYC. <br><br><br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">Well that's my point exactly. In terms of my own (non-EMS, as I was an EMT at the time as well) memory of that day, I mean there are layers upon layers of generations of infrastructure in NYC going back to the 1800s including undersea COPPER cables from that era to Europe that are still functional to this day (we used to have a map of all the cable and satellite routes at the time.) At the time I was working in midtown for a small CLEC international wholesale Telecom company (a provider's provider) and I remember that was also the beginning of the era where:<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">A) the utility companies starting to use crawler robots to pull new fiber through the sewers, as they had no more conduits or other places to route new cables, and;<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">B) the beginning of starting to use all the "dark fiber" that the utility companies had but barely used for themselves (power companies like ConEd started trying to get into the voice Telecom business...)<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">But even so, without all of that, the internet managed to reroute and self-heal enough to go around the damage and keep the internet going where it could, whereas a SONET ring only has two possible routes, only knew the next hop, and was usually in a smaller (block/building) scale than internet connectivity (city scale.) But you knock out an OC192, and that's that. Compare that to the still mostly "circuit switched" framework of the telephone companies at the time... (I don't recall enough about the ATM + Frame Relay or SS7 protocol stacks to say anything about their rerouting and self-healing capabilities, but with all the proprietary routing of the phone companies at the time, they didn't communicate as effectively with their competitors, so their switching equipment didn't always know how or were even unable to reroute on a grander scale...)<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">I used to work at 40 John Street and got off the A train at WTC every morning - and how much they almost hit. I had just moved to a new job in midtown less than a month before. My cousin and her husband and infant son lived in Battery Park. And I used to go in and out of those already highly secure Telco towers in nonsuspect looking buildings...<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">To this day I don't know if it was part of the plan or if AlQaeda was just really lucky in terms of how much communications infrastructure that they took out that day. But I remember that map in our office showing almost every undersea cable coming from Europe, the Med and north Africa all coming I to one central point at the tip of Manhattan, and with a few offshoots down to Newark/Hoboken NJ...<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">That day (and the following weeks) convinced me of the internet's capability.<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">TCP/IP has a lot of overhead in terms of packet size with regards to RF, I know. But I (personally) have not yet seen anything networking-wise to compare to it's resiliency and massive scalability. (I was also already an early Vonage customer at the time, and while we couldn't call certain places regionally from our landline phone in northern NJ, my BlackBerry and my Vonage phones never went out...) I think that's why it won the protocol wars versus all the less scalable LAN protocols from Novell, MS + Apple. It's just what it was designed for...<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">I am not that old per se (at least not as old as that guy in the mirror every day...) Some in the industry would consider me a "youngin,'" and even comparatively inexperienced, which is true. But that was a learning experience for a lot of people, and regardless of politics, I think that our country (and most of the world in general) have matured their internet capabilities orders of magnitude based in the lessons of the past. Concepts like FirstNet, GETS/WPS, and other things are great strides forward.<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">But that's not to say I trust anything enough to put all my eggs in one basket. I live in a rural area (but "in" town and we rent - so my antenna space is limited at the moment,) and I've never liked putting all my eggs in one basket for anything... Similar to military use, I've read some new civilian stuff about the reemergence of HF, and combined with things like ALE and some of these Ham protocols that I don't know enough about yet in detail, I know we have the capability to bridge the gap not if but WHEN that massive internet infrastructure chokes one day (like SQL Slammer did back when) from a solar are, EMP, Gamma burst from a star - whatever...<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">For those like me who view this as a hobby (not necessarily mutually exclusive of the latter,) we've got a lot of new "toys" (not just hardware, but protocols, etc.) to play with nowadays, and I'm sure we'll discover a lot we can do that the internet cannot...<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">For those like me who also view this from a [disaster and OEM/ARES/RACES/MARS] service-based perspective, or those afraid that we need to prove our utility now ahead of time to ensure we have a seat at the table when the need comes, I am reminded daily of every short-term thinking bureaucrat, boss and administrator that I've ever worked for in ANY field who refused to plan for the long term, only to have our predictions come true. So even if they don't listen or think they've got better things than "just Hams" right now, I'm sure most of you already know from experience - irregardless of whether we have a seat at the table now, they'll be knocking on our doors (probably because the phones and internet don't work) when the time comes...<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">I agree with both perspectives:<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">Optimally, in a perfect world, I think it'd be great if we had a totally RF network capability that didn't rely at all on the internet for any linkages (although somehow some DNS queries do still need to be answered externally.) However;<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">...the realist in me knows that at this moment, especially in some parts of the state, we don't completely have that capability (or even at all - for example me in the interim.)<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">But in terms of an inter-net-worked infrastructure (RF + Inet,) at least I can contribute something to the system, and whether it's primary or redundancy, hopefully it will fill a gap that would otherwise be empty for the time being...<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">So there's my "once upon a time, old f@r+" story. It's just MY opinion and perspective - I don't expect anyone to agree with it in it's entirety. I'm no master or sage. But for whomever is still awake after reading it, it is why I am the way I am...<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">[...end rant.../]<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">73<br><br></div>
<div dir="auto">AJM, KB2AJM<br><br><br><br><br></div>
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<div class="gmail_quote" >On Nov 28, 2020, at 11:51 AM, Joe Cupano <<a href="mailto:joe@cupano.com" target="_blank">joe@cupano.com</a>> wrote:<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin: 0pt 0pt 0pt 0.8ex; border-left: 1px solid rgb(204, 204, 204); padding-left: 1ex;">
<br> Well said, AJM
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<br> It was amazing how much infrastructure was unaffected in the rest of NYC.
<br> I worked for a global financial that started hosting other financials on our IT infra
<br> that were displaced by the events in a few days.
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<br> 73,
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<br> - Joe, NE2Z
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Andrew J. McLeod, KB2AJM (ex. KD2PLE):
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On Nov 16, 2020, at 10:53 AM, Christopher Piggott
<a class="moz-txt-link-rfc2396E" href="mailto:cpiggott@gmail.com"><cpiggott@gmail.com></a> wrote:
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Internet to help carry between those areas where a direct RF connection may not be possible
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I do understand that. I'm just worried about the idea of being so dependent on public wired and wireless infrastructure.
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I too worry about the dependency on public infrastructure. On the other hand, you do have to admit that:
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a) there is a lot more geography covered by it than by Hams nowadays, and
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b) in my mind (personal opinion from personal experience,) the lessons of 9/11 (when I was still living in northern NJ and was a Voice + IP tech/engineer in Manhattan at the time) demonstrated the self-healing and resilient capabilities of TCP/IP and packet networks, as was intended by the DARPA people who to my understanding invented it to (hopefully) maintain distributed command and control after a nuclear attack. When maximum destruction at ground zero took out not only Verizon Bldg. #7 but all the fiber, copper and AT&T switching equipment in the basement of tower (1 or 2) and - between cable cuts and power loss - the majority of the interconnects coming into the eastern seaboard, when analog switched phone, cellular, many of the local NYC broadcast TV and radio stations (antennas on the roof of the WTC) went out. But my Blackberry work pager worked, as did AOL and Yahoo instant messenger, and a lot of people communicated with their families that way that day...
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Although I do not have all the faith in the world that some have in our infrastructure (including FirstNet) nor do I live all the way in conspiracyland, I do believe that our dependence on the internet for all types of connectivity (even some of the ignorant hospitals I work for depend almost entirely on remote connectivity across large healthcare systems with distant data enters with almost no local infrastructure now,) has led to at least a somewhat stronger, more resilient network in that regard.
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And to that extent, for what we are doing, for small hops in between the regions that we simply do not have enough Hams to cover, I think we have no choice but for a hybrid system. After all, "44net" by definition is related to our IPv4 allocation. And so unlike some projects that are intended to be entirely wireless, I think hybrid is in our DNA so to speak...
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Barring solar flares and all out armageddon, I think we have no choice...
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That's just my opinion...
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73,
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AJM, KB2AJM
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On Nov 16, 2020, at 10:53 AM, Christopher Piggott <
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Internet to help carry between those areas where a direct RF connection may not be possible
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I do understand that. I'm just worried about the idea of being so dependent on public wired and wireless infrastructure.
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On Wed, Nov 11, 2020 at 9:18 PM Andrew J. McLeod, KB2AJM (ex. KD2PLE) <
<a href="mailto:andrew@kb2ajm.us" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">andrew@kb2ajm.us</a>> wrote:
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Hello Mitch KE7WWT.
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Without drooling too much, I just wanted to say that your extremely ambitious project(s) mirror my own interests in being able to "INTER-network" and converge these vital (and fun) communications technologies - voice, data/packet/digi, VoIP, APRS, RF, terrestrial, etc.
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You guys up north may be some of the poorest counties in NYS, but down here in the rural Catskills we have some simar statistics too (just not ones to brag about.) I and a few dispersed others also have ambitious ideas that many surrounding us are either put off by or simply not interested in. And so while a few projects of communal interest are making some progress regionally (ex. Winlink, an ARES/RACES repeater, some APRS digipeaters and I-gates, etc.) others such as myself have been doing similar to you - trying to build it all ourselves out of shallow pockets and an even smaller lot of property.
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I find your portable C&C center very interesting, and similar to my (thus far more) meager and slightly larger 12U rolling 19" rack case I've built for ARES and personal use. The entire idea of being able to congregate info from a multitude of sources and potentially do so two-way over range without the requirement of failable infrastructure is exactly what interests me as well (too many years of IT and EMS, including working in NYC before, during and after 9/11.)
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So while - with the exception of my SignaLink USB on HF - my setup is (mostly) analog so far, my goal as time and finances allow is to expand this into the exact same voice/packet INTER-networked type of set-up you have in mind, both stationary/base as well as portable.
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I would definitely be interested in chatting as to where you are and where you see your next steps to be going, and if I can offer any assistance from my background I would be happy to do so - AND THAT OFFER GOES TO ANYBODY ELSE WHERE.
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With regards to internet connectivity, TCP/IP, data and VoIP equipment, I have (home) business-grade internet with a 13 usable block of public IPs, as well as considerably more TCP/IP, VoIP and security equipment (Cisco, Ubiquiti, etc.) at the moment than I do Ham, so while I know TCP/IP is a heavy-overhead protocol, if any projects of interest have the need to (for example) convert an incoming RF analog voice or fax signal into TCP/IP to send out over the internet - or to use VoIP to link RFs at 2 locations over internet (sort of like EchoLink does,) those are some of the ideas I've been toying around with...
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Enough for now. Glad to make everybody's acquaintance, and TTYS.
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73 again,
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Andrew J. McLeod, KB2AJM
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Get
<a href="http://www.bluemail.me/r?b=16117" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">BlueMail for Android</a>
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On Nov 11, 2020, at 6:52 AM, "Maurice A. Mitchell - KE7WWT" <
<a href="mailto:maurice@maurice-mitchell.com" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">maurice@maurice-mitchell.com</a>> wrote:
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<pre>KE7WWT
Jefferson County NY (North of Syracuse) located just a stone's throw away from the fence at Fort Drum. Retired Army - 26 years, 7 months, 5 days and 2 hours.
I run the WINLINK Packet system and serve on the both ARES and RACES. I am a DHS SHARES operator with ALE/Voice and HF RMS WINLINK. I am also a MARS operator.
I start this project almost a year ago and thanks to changes dealing with COVID, I have ran out of time, but hope to have things change soon. I wanted to use the 44Net as a way to combine, in one box or two (ammo cans) the ability to have a mobile/portable node that serves Broadband Hamnet, APRS I-GATE and digi, remote control of base station radios, DMR and maybe D-STAR hotspots, and of course the ability to link and interface Packet.
Jefferson and its surrounding counties (Saint Lawrence and Lewis) are the three poorest counties in the State, and as such, there is very little activity that requires expenditure of money. As such, I have taken the "build it and they will come" mentality. In the end, it does not work - This is baofeng country. Not a lot of hams, and not a lot of invested in the art and science of communications. That said, I still want a method that can tie me into various networks to not only pull information, but also to share information for the benefit of a larger group. I want something that is not internet-dependent, but is internet-enabled.
In the end. . I need a lot of help.
Mitch
-----Original Message-----
From: HamGateNY <<a href="mailto:hamgateny-bounces@n2nov.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">hamgateny-bounces@n2nov.net</a>> On Behalf Of Charles J. Hargrove
Sent: Tuesday, November 10, 2020 23:28
To: <a href="mailto:hamgateny@n2nov.net" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">hamgateny@n2nov.net</a>
Subject: Re: [HamGateNY] Welcome to HamGateNY
So far we have seen introductions from:
KA1NJL, K2JJT, WW2BSA, KB2AJM and AJ2A.
How about the rest of this 92 person group?
What is your set-up or what will it be?
What software, hardware, services, etc?
Let us all help each other to get things going.
On 11/5/2020 11:06 AM, Charles J. Hargrove wrote:
<blockquote class="gmail_quote" style="margin:0pt 0pt 1ex 0.8ex;border-left:1px solid rgb(114,159,207);padding-left:1ex">
Since the merger of the WNYPG mailing list into the HamGateNY list, we
now have 87 members (some who were on both lists). This would be a
great opportunity to introduce yourselves. Give us your callsign,
what area of NY State (or outside of it), what kind of packet system
you are running, etc.
Let's use this list as a request-for-help and sharing of
knowledge/projects.
I will start:
- N2NOV
- Staten Island, NYC
- EmComm lead for ARES/RACES during 9/11, 2003 Blackout, etc
- Founder/President of NYC-ARECS (
<a href="http://www.nyc-arecs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.nyc-arecs.org</a>)
- running JNOS system since 1998 starting on DOS and now Linux
- NY State 44Net/
<a href="http://AMPR.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">AMPR.org</a> coordinator
- IT field since 1989 (databases, networking, help desk, web hosting)
- ran for Congress as a write-in twice
(
<a href="http://www.HargroveForCongress.us" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.HargroveForCongress.us</a>)
- Secretary of the Staten Island Libertarian Party
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--
Charles J. Hargrove - N2NOV
NYC-ARECS/RACES Citywide Radio Officer/Skywarn Coord.
NYC-ARECS/RACES Nets 147.360/107.2 PL
ARnewsline Broadcast Mon. @ 8:00PM
NYC-ARECS Weekly Net Mon. @ 8:30PM
<a href="http://www.nyc-arecs.org" target="_blank" moz-do-not-send="true">http://www.nyc-arecs.org</a>
NY-NBEMS Net Saturdays @ 10AM & USeast-NBEMS Net Wednesdays @ 7PM on 7.036 Mhz USB (alt 3.536)/1500 hz waterfall spot; MFSK-16 or 32
"Information is the oxygen of the modern age. It seeps through the walls topped by barbed wire, it wafts across the electrified borders." - Ronald Reagan
"The more corrupt the state, the more it legislates." - Tacitus
"Molann an obair an fear" - Irish Saying (The work praises the man.)
"No matter how big and powerful government gets, and the many services it provides, it can never take the place of volunteers." - Ronald Reagan
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